Since this is "On guard against the Catholic lunatic fringe", I'd like to suggest that this story is an overstatement, and a misrepresentation of fact by an extremist organization. The argument that "After we're all sterilized and aborted, who's going to appreciate the fact that global warming is, by golly, under control?" is Reductio ad absurdum, and IMHO, "lunacy".
This article shows a disdain not only for those who would have abortions, but also for those who would decide not to have children, and mocks those with concern about global warming. Why not the same disdain for those who need to have 8 or more children? To me, both extreme positions seem equally "loony"
Wouldn't honesty, integrity, and supporting effective reduction of unwanted pregnancies be a better means to stop abortions, than exaggeration and vilification? Or is the real goal to be holier than thou? Perhaps John8:11 could be instructive here.
Jeffrey Smith, a fetus is not a child. The two year old who ran down an aisle in Target yesterday screaming "Grandma, Grandma" when she saw my wife is a child. Her mother's twin, which my wife miscarried at about six weeks, was not a child. It was an embryo. We neither mourn nor honor that embryo, but we rejoice in the child who was born months later.
Calling an embryo or fetus a child is so intellectually dishonest as to be beyond the pale. It's like calling an acorn an oak tree. It just doesn't work, and people with sense know that.
Calling an embryo or fetus a child is so intellectually dishonest as to be beyond the pale. It's like calling an acorn an oak tree. It just doesn't work, and people with sense know that.
Nonsense! As embryology and fetology advance, it becomes clear that human life is a continuum. Neonatology has pushed the definition of viability ever earlier so that it is hard to defend logically any demarcation point after conception as the point at which an immature form of human life can be morally or legally discounted as a nonperson, no matter how immature, dependent, powerless or different looking. Calling an embryo or fetus, anything other than human life, is absurd. It is the way every person enters the world.
Jeffery, I wish folks would expend as much energy on preventing the birth of children who are doomed to painful death from starvation.
aisme said... human life is a continuum.
All life is a continuum, no one here said it wasn't.
...it is hard to defend logically any demarcation point after conception...
Calling an embryo or fetus, anything other than human life, is absurd.
After? Why not before? eggs and sperm are alive and human, as are the gametes that produced them. Conception causes DNA recombination and begins cell division. It is perfectly reasonable to use consciousness as a point of demarcation. It makes much more sense than conception, if you care about the suffering of others.
After? Why not before? eggs and sperm are alive and human,
An egg is an egg, sperm is sperm. Separate, neither one is considered by medical science to be classified as a homo sapien, until after conception. And modern biology has never taught anything differently. There are many reasons why someone might be pro-choice, but don't use faulty and misleading biological term to justify it. Just be courageous enough to admit that your reasoning permits abortion and remove the gobbledygock about whether it is a person before conception. Mistaken beliefs may have worked 30 years ago, but science has come a long way since then, and today, people are not so easily mislead.
Jeffery, I wish folks would expend as much energy on preventing the birth of children who are doomed to painful death from starvation.
And I wish folks would stop thinking that the best way to help the poor, is by eliminating them. By your reasoning, if I really cared about the starving poor, I'd want to get rid of as many of them as possible. Or did I misunderstand you?
Surely, we can expand our energy to find a better and more humane way of solving poverty.
aisme said... An egg is an egg, sperm is sperm. Separate, neither one is considered by medical science to be classified as a homo sapien
Human eggs and sperm cells certainly ARE classified as belonging to the species "sapien" in the group "homo", and in the Kingdom "animalia", just as the resulting cells after conception are. The cells after conception have a new combination of DNA that MAY result in the formation of a new individual within these groupings, and certainly the new combination of DNA will define the traits of a new individual, should one result. You say that the cells only become human AFTER conception, and then claim this is the view of "modern biology". To be blunt, that's bovine excrement. What you really mean is that you believe that an "individual" instantly comes into being at conception. Of course, often the particular recombination of DNA at conception has non-viable results, and cannot result in an individual, so that's clearly wrong.
...be courageous enough to admit that your reasoning permits abortion...
Was I not clear about that? I'm on record elsewhere about my views of this. But for the record again: My primary moral concern is to reduce suffering, not to adhere to dogma. I don't take an extreme stance by over-simplifiing the problem like most others seem to do. Late term abortion is illegal and, like you, I agree that it should be. Just because a baby has not yet been born, doesn't make him or her any less of a person. I think the law should protect such individuals. Conversely, the cells resulting from recombination and division after conception are NOT yet a person, and are far more likely to be aborted spontaneously, than to ever become a person. Just to be clear, my definition of a person, necessitates the "ability to experience", which cannot happen without a functioning brain, which is not present at conception.
...I wish folks would stop thinking that the best way to help the poor, is by eliminating them. By your reasoning, if I really cared about the starving poor, I'd want to get rid of as many of them as possible. Or did I misunderstand you? Surely, we can expand our energy to find a better and more humane way of solving poverty.
So your tactic is to mischaracterize me as hostile to poor "people"? And to imply I'm somehow advocating the genocide of poor "people"? So by that logic, you want to create as many poor people as possible? I hope not, that would be cruel.
No, I actually care about the poor. I don't claim to be especially altruistic, and I haven't given everything I own away, as Jesus preaches (Luke 18:22), but very few do that, which doesn't include any of us. Yes, I want to eliminate "the poor" by eliminating poverty, not live people. Reducing birth rates, is not the same as killing (eliminating) people as you (not so cunningly) imply.
It's the hiding or withholding beneficial birth control methods and methods of disease control that is hostile to poor people. Poor people desperately need these things. The Catholic church does MUCH to help the poor, but always with an agenda, and part of the agenda results in more and more people in agonizing poverty. This is a sadistic form of "help".
Consciousness is not a reasonable point of demarcation, nor is having the ability to experience a definition of a person. I do not sanction killing the innocent if it can be done painlessly or without the victim’s awareness. Consciousness becomes important to the debate only because it is used as a criterion for “personhood” so often seen as the prerequisite for legal protection. Yet certain people set the standard of personhood so high that half the human race could not meet the criteria during most of their waking hours. Sentience, self-consciousness, rational decision-making, social participation? Surely no infant or child under two could qualify.
Calling the Church sadistic because of her prohibition against contraception is utter rubbish, based on a completely distorted notion of the Church’s teachings. The Church teaches above all the sacredness of marriage and faithfulness in marriage. That is her true voice.
The Church is not to blame for any agonizing poverty because children are not the cause of the problem. Besides, in Africa and other parts of the globe the opposite danger has arisen through the rapid spread of AIDS: the depopulation of the countryside. Misery is not produced by people who learn faithfulness and self-restraints, but by people who see man only in a mechanical way, so that you replace the moral dignity of man by handing out condoms so as to make his freedom a lesser danger to him. You want the best method of disease control … stop fornicating! It’s that simple. Furthermore, I doubt that anyone ready to engage in promiscuous or casual sex is overly concerned about what the Church teaches regarding sex or anything else for that matter.
The poor will never climb to social empowerment over mounds of dead fetuses or having fewer children. There will only be less starving children. Now, I can understand with good reason, how someone might see this as a good idea, but it is not a solution. The poor will still remain poor and the problem of poverty and misery is still not solved. Only stop blaming the Church for man’s everlasting quest and desire to engage in unrestrained sex without fear of consequences. After all, we have free will to do as we please, with or without the Church's permission.
What happened to Terry? He took his ball and went home. ;-)
aisme said... Consciousness is not a reasonable point of demarcation
I'm sure it isn't to you, no, because you're starting with bad assumptions.
nor is having the ability to experience a definition of a person.
Use whatever definition you want, but if you can't sense or experience anything, then you have no "interests" to protect.
Calling the Church sadistic because of her prohibition against contraception is utter rubbish, The Church teaches above all the sacredness of marriage and faithfulness in marriage.
It isn't the policy of prohibition against contraception itself that is sadistic. It is maintaining these policies when all evidence shows not only that they contribute to great suffering and death, but that the opposite policy would reduce suffering and death.
The Church is not to blame for any agonizing poverty... ...You want the best method of disease control … stop fornicating!
Withholding demonstrably effective methods to reduce suffering because you want to impose your beliefs on others is mean, arrogant, and carries with it the responsibility for the problems it helps to create. Denying this is just dodging responsibility.
I doubt that anyone ready to engage in promiscuous or casual sex is overly concerned about what the Church teaches.
Concern is not the point. For many of these desperately poor, missionaries of the church are their only source of education, and that eduction has an agenda that has devastating results.
There will only be less starving children. Now, I can understand with good reason, how someone might see this as a good idea, but it is not a solution. The poor will still remain poor and the problem of poverty and misery is still not solved.
Compassionate reduction of suffering is still a good goal even if you can't reduce it by 100%. Anyone can realize that. Especially if you were one of the ones suffering.
Food & water divided by fewer people equals more food & water per person. Reducing population in areas that have limited food and water resources will certainly alleviate the desperation and suffering of the people. A complete solution? No. But a compassionate policy if you care about people.
Don't you just HATE it when you have sex with someone in order to produce a sports car or a fish or maybe even a monkey or a dog...and what emerges from the birth canal is a human baby with his or her own complete personality? That very personality established at conception?
Gosh, I HATE how that works.
And what about the fact that the soul is infused into the fetus that so annoyingly can become ONLY a human baby, at the very moment of conception?
Oh, right, science can't prove that.
What a hopeless viewpoint, to willfully miss the obvious in order to ignore the Divine.
Adoro te Devote said... ...the soul is infused into the fetus ...can become ONLY a human baby, at the very moment of conception? Oh, right, science can't prove that.
Actually sometimes the growing blastocyst splits to become more than one individual, long after conception.
Just curious; In the "soul hypothesis" does one of the individuals get the soul, while the other remains "soulless" or does each resulting person have half a soul? Or do two half souls magically grow into two full souls?
Oh, and when you answer, can you refer me to you sources? I really want to understand the "facts" you are presenting
So... It's been more than 2 months since I asked my questions. Hope everyone had a great Christmas. I did. My daughter now has tons of those "Webkins" stuffed animal things.
Anyway, I'll assume no answers to my questions are forthcoming. See these are the kinds of questions that arise from belief in things which are not real. The questions don't compute, because the premise they're based on is false.
Mike, I suggest you take your pro-abortion sentiment elsewhere. If you read carefully, this is a *Catholic* blog, and its readers tend to be *Catholics* who, I assume, attempt fidelity to the Papal Magisterium. I understand you are not among their ranks. In any case, you will not convince anyone here of aborting human life within the womb... Good day.
Hi Christine, First, realize that my sarcasm above was in response to others' sarcasm. I'm happy to go away if the blog owner doesn't want my comments. As you know, this is a blog that accepts public comments, not a private church. The owner is able to delete my comments anytime they want. Perhaps you could appeal to him to censor me, should you feel so inclined.
A correction: You claim that I am "pro abortion". This is not correct. What I am "pro" is reasonableness. My opinion can be persuaded and changed, for good reasons. It happens all the time. I think abortions should be as rare as possible, just as with any surgery or medical procedure. It is unfortunate that some anti-Birth Control policies are effectively "pro-abortion" though. If you truly want less abortions, you should support birth control, but I suspect you do not, which is somewhat hypocritical.
Perhaps instead of just admonishing me to "go away" you could identify where you think I'm incorrect and why, because it seems to me the reason you are hostile to my presence, is that the points I make are valid and threaten your beliefs.
"[I]t seems to me the reason you are hostile to my presence, is that the points I make are valid and threaten your beliefs."
Oh please. Speak all you wish; I have no desire to censor anyone--but your attempts here are futile. If you have an argument with birth control, I suggest you read Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae, because your quarrel is ultimately with the Church, not with me.
They are not. I gain from them. I can hope that some of the minds listening are open, but even barring that, I want to learn the arguments that disagree with me, because I don't assume that I am correct.
If you have an argument with birth control... ...your quarrel is ultimately with the Church, not with me.
My disagreement (why must it be a "quarrel", or fight) is with the banning or restricting of birth control or knowledge of it. That is a disagreement with the Roman Catholic Church AND the adherents to it's dogma.
Your suggestion that I should read Mr. Montini's opinion on the subject, is only because you have decided to hold whatever opinion he has, and you think that somehow settles the matter. It is my opinion, that his opinion, has significantly less value than others who know a great deal more about the subject of the constituents of human life than did he.
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72 comments:
Since this is "On guard against the Catholic lunatic fringe", I'd like to suggest that this story is an overstatement, and a misrepresentation of fact by an extremist organization. The argument that "After we're all sterilized and aborted, who's going to appreciate the fact that global warming is, by golly, under control?" is Reductio ad absurdum, and IMHO, "lunacy".
This article shows a disdain not only for those who would have abortions, but also for those who would decide not to have children, and mocks those with concern about global warming. Why not the same disdain for those who need to have 8 or more children? To me, both extreme positions seem equally "loony"
Wouldn't honesty, integrity, and supporting effective reduction of unwanted pregnancies be a better means to stop abortions, than exaggeration and vilification? Or is the real goal to be holier than thou? Perhaps John8:11 could be instructive here.
I would say that honesty and integrity would demand that anyone with an ounce of decency would vilify anyone who would murder a child.
Jeffrey Smith, a fetus is not a child. The two year old who ran down an aisle in Target yesterday screaming "Grandma, Grandma" when she saw my wife is a child. Her mother's twin, which my wife miscarried at about six weeks, was not a child. It was an embryo. We neither mourn nor honor that embryo, but we rejoice in the child who was born months later.
Calling an embryo or fetus a child is so intellectually dishonest as to be beyond the pale. It's like calling an acorn an oak tree. It just doesn't work, and people with sense know that.
Calling an embryo or fetus a child is so intellectually dishonest as to be beyond the pale. It's like calling an acorn an oak tree. It just doesn't work, and people with sense know that.
Nonsense! As embryology and fetology advance, it becomes clear that human life is a continuum. Neonatology has pushed the definition of viability ever earlier so that it is hard to defend logically any demarcation point after conception as the point at which an immature form of human life can be morally or legally discounted as a nonperson, no matter how immature, dependent, powerless or different looking. Calling an embryo or fetus, anything other than human life, is absurd. It is the way every person enters the world.
Jeffery, I wish folks would expend as much energy on preventing the birth of children who are doomed to painful death from starvation.
aisme said...
human life is a continuum.
All life is a continuum, no one here said it wasn't.
...it is hard to defend logically any demarcation point after conception...
Calling an embryo or fetus, anything other than human life, is absurd.
After? Why not before? eggs and sperm are alive and human, as are the gametes that produced them. Conception causes DNA recombination and begins cell division. It is perfectly reasonable to use consciousness as a point of demarcation. It makes much more sense than conception, if you care about the suffering of others.
After? Why not before? eggs and sperm are alive and human,
An egg is an egg, sperm is sperm. Separate, neither one is considered by medical science to be classified as a homo sapien, until after conception. And modern biology has never taught anything differently. There are many reasons why someone might be pro-choice, but don't use faulty and misleading biological term to justify it. Just be courageous enough to admit that your reasoning permits abortion and remove the gobbledygock about whether it is a person before conception. Mistaken beliefs may have worked 30 years ago, but science has come a long way since then, and today, people are not so easily mislead.
Jeffery, I wish folks would expend as much energy on preventing the birth of children who are doomed to painful death from starvation.
And I wish folks would stop thinking that the best way to help the poor, is by eliminating them. By your reasoning, if I really cared about the starving poor, I'd want to get rid of as many of them as possible. Or did I misunderstand you?
Surely, we can expand our energy to find a better and more humane way of solving poverty.
aisme said...
An egg is an egg, sperm is sperm. Separate, neither one is considered by medical science to be classified as a homo sapien
Human eggs and sperm cells certainly ARE classified as belonging to the species "sapien" in the group "homo", and in the Kingdom "animalia", just as the resulting cells after conception are. The cells after conception have a new combination of DNA that MAY result in the formation of a new individual within these groupings, and certainly the new combination of DNA will define the traits of a new individual, should one result. You say that the cells only become human AFTER conception, and then claim this is the view of "modern biology". To be blunt, that's bovine excrement. What you really mean is that you believe that an "individual" instantly comes into being at conception. Of course, often the particular recombination of DNA at conception has non-viable results, and cannot result in an individual, so that's clearly wrong.
...be courageous enough to admit that your reasoning permits abortion...
Was I not clear about that? I'm on record elsewhere about my views of this. But for the record again:
My primary moral concern is to reduce suffering, not to adhere to dogma. I don't take an extreme stance by over-simplifiing the problem like most others seem to do. Late term abortion is illegal and, like you, I agree that it should be. Just because a baby has not yet been born, doesn't make him or her any less of a person. I think the law should protect such individuals. Conversely, the cells resulting from recombination and division after conception are NOT yet a person, and are far more likely to be aborted spontaneously, than to ever become a person. Just to be clear, my definition of a person, necessitates the "ability to experience", which cannot happen without a functioning brain, which is not present at conception.
...I wish folks would stop thinking that the best way to help the poor, is by eliminating them. By your reasoning, if I really cared about the starving poor, I'd want to get rid of as many of them as possible. Or did I misunderstand you?
Surely, we can expand our energy to find a better and more humane way of solving poverty.
So your tactic is to mischaracterize me as hostile to poor "people"? And to imply I'm somehow advocating the genocide of poor "people"? So by that logic, you want to create as many poor people as possible? I hope not, that would be cruel.
No, I actually care about the poor. I don't claim to be especially altruistic, and I haven't given everything I own away, as Jesus preaches (Luke 18:22), but very few do that, which doesn't include any of us. Yes, I want to eliminate "the poor" by eliminating poverty, not live people. Reducing birth rates, is not the same as killing (eliminating) people as you (not so cunningly) imply.
It's the hiding or withholding beneficial birth control methods and methods of disease control that is hostile to poor people. Poor people desperately need these things. The Catholic church does MUCH to help the poor, but always with an agenda, and part of the agenda results in more and more people in agonizing poverty. This is a sadistic form of "help".
Consciousness is not a reasonable point of demarcation, nor is having the ability to experience a definition of a person. I do not sanction killing the innocent if it can be done painlessly or without the victim’s awareness. Consciousness becomes important to the debate only because it is used as a criterion for “personhood” so often seen as the prerequisite for legal protection. Yet certain people set the standard of personhood so high that half the human race could not meet the criteria during most of their waking hours. Sentience, self-consciousness, rational decision-making, social participation? Surely no infant or child under two could qualify.
Calling the Church sadistic because of her prohibition against contraception is utter rubbish, based on a completely distorted notion of the Church’s teachings. The Church teaches above all the sacredness of marriage and faithfulness in marriage. That is her true voice.
The Church is not to blame for any agonizing poverty because children are not the cause of the problem. Besides, in Africa and other parts of the globe the opposite danger has arisen through the rapid spread of AIDS: the depopulation of the countryside. Misery is not produced by people who learn faithfulness and self-restraints, but by people who see man only in a mechanical way, so that you replace the moral dignity of man by handing out condoms so as to make his freedom a lesser danger to him. You want the best method of disease control … stop fornicating! It’s that simple. Furthermore, I doubt that anyone ready to engage in promiscuous or casual sex is overly concerned about what the Church teaches regarding sex or anything else for that matter.
The poor will never climb to social empowerment over mounds of dead fetuses or having fewer children. There will only be less starving children. Now, I can understand with good reason, how someone might see this as a good idea, but it is not a solution. The poor will still remain poor and the problem of poverty and misery is still not solved.
Only stop blaming the Church for man’s everlasting quest and desire to engage in unrestrained sex without fear of consequences. After all, we have free will to do as we please, with or without the Church's permission.
What happened to Terry? He took his ball and went home. ;-)
aisme said...
Consciousness is not a reasonable point of demarcation
I'm sure it isn't to you, no, because you're starting with bad assumptions.
nor is having the ability to experience a definition of a person.
Use whatever definition you want, but if you can't sense or experience anything, then you have no "interests" to protect.
Calling the Church sadistic because of her prohibition against contraception is utter rubbish,
The Church teaches above all the sacredness of marriage and faithfulness in marriage.
It isn't the policy of prohibition against contraception itself that is sadistic. It is maintaining these policies when all evidence shows not only that they contribute to great suffering and death, but that the opposite policy would reduce suffering and death.
The Church is not to blame for any agonizing poverty...
...You want the best method of disease control … stop fornicating!
Withholding demonstrably effective methods to reduce suffering because you want to impose your beliefs on others is mean, arrogant, and carries with it the responsibility for the problems it helps to create. Denying this is just dodging responsibility.
I doubt that anyone ready to engage in promiscuous or casual sex is overly concerned about what the Church teaches.
Concern is not the point. For many of these desperately poor, missionaries of the church are their only source of education, and that eduction has an agenda that has devastating results.
There will only be less starving children. Now, I can understand with good reason, how someone might see this as a good idea, but it is not a solution. The poor will still remain poor and the problem of poverty and misery is still not solved.
Compassionate reduction of suffering is still a good goal even if you can't reduce it by 100%. Anyone can realize that. Especially if you were one of the ones suffering.
Food & water divided by fewer people equals more food & water per person. Reducing population in areas that have limited food and water resources will certainly alleviate the desperation and suffering of the people. A complete solution? No. But a compassionate policy if you care about people.
Anyone who still calls an unborn child a "fetus" hasn't taken a good look at an ultrasound. I feel very sorry for anyone so lost in self-delusion.
Don't you just HATE it when you have sex with someone in order to produce a sports car or a fish or maybe even a monkey or a dog...and what emerges from the birth canal is a human baby with his or her own complete personality? That very personality established at conception?
Gosh, I HATE how that works.
And what about the fact that the soul is infused into the fetus that so annoyingly can become ONLY a human baby, at the very moment of conception?
Oh, right, science can't prove that.
What a hopeless viewpoint, to willfully miss the obvious in order to ignore the Divine.
Merry Christmas.
Cool. Sarcasm. I can do that too.
Adoro te Devote said...
...the soul is infused into the fetus ...can become ONLY a human baby, at the very moment of conception?
Oh, right, science can't prove that.
Actually sometimes the growing blastocyst splits to become more than one individual, long after conception.
Just curious; In the "soul hypothesis" does one of the individuals get the soul, while the other remains "soulless" or does each resulting person have half a soul? Or do two half souls magically grow into two full souls?
Oh, and when you answer, can you refer me to you sources? I really want to understand the "facts" you are presenting
Thanks.
So... It's been more than 2 months since I asked my questions. Hope everyone had a great Christmas. I did. My daughter now has tons of those "Webkins" stuffed animal things.
Anyway, I'll assume no answers to my questions are forthcoming. See these are the kinds of questions that arise from belief in things which are not real. The questions don't compute, because the premise they're based on is false.
Mike,
I suggest you take your pro-abortion sentiment elsewhere. If you read carefully, this is a *Catholic* blog, and its readers tend to be *Catholics* who, I assume, attempt fidelity to the Papal Magisterium. I understand you are not among their ranks. In any case, you will not convince anyone here of aborting human life within the womb... Good day.
Hi Christine,
First, realize that my sarcasm above was in response to others' sarcasm. I'm happy to go away if the blog owner doesn't want my comments. As you know, this is a blog that accepts public comments, not a private church. The owner is able to delete my comments anytime they want. Perhaps you could appeal to him to censor me, should you feel so inclined.
A correction:
You claim that I am "pro abortion". This is not correct. What I am "pro" is reasonableness. My opinion can be persuaded and changed, for good reasons. It happens all the time. I think abortions should be as rare as possible, just as with any surgery or medical procedure. It is unfortunate that some anti-Birth Control policies are effectively "pro-abortion" though. If you truly want less abortions, you should support birth control, but I suspect you do not, which is somewhat hypocritical.
Perhaps instead of just admonishing me to "go away" you could identify where you think I'm incorrect and why, because it seems to me the reason you are hostile to my presence, is that the points I make are valid and threaten your beliefs.
"[I]t seems to me the reason you are hostile to my presence, is that the points I make are valid and threaten your beliefs."
Oh please. Speak all you wish; I have no desire to censor anyone--but your attempts here are futile. If you have an argument with birth control, I suggest you read Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae, because your quarrel is ultimately with the Church, not with me.
Christine said...
your attempts here are futile.
They are not. I gain from them. I can hope that some of the minds listening are open, but even barring that, I want to learn the arguments that disagree with me, because I don't assume that I am correct.
If you have an argument with birth control...
...your quarrel is ultimately with the Church, not with me.
My disagreement (why must it be a "quarrel", or fight) is with the banning or restricting of birth control or knowledge of it. That is a disagreement with the Roman Catholic Church AND the adherents to it's dogma.
Your suggestion that I should read Mr. Montini's opinion on the subject, is only because you have decided to hold whatever opinion he has, and you think that somehow settles the matter. It is my opinion, that his opinion, has significantly less value than others who know a great deal more about the subject of the constituents of human life than did he.
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